Need help fixing a problem with my German car.
Need help fixing a problem with my German car.
As I'm sure everyone know my daily car is a BMW....:p:blushing:
The car has Eibach Coilovers, with Eibach AntiRoll bars. I have been having problems with it rolling excessively when cornering and generally driving poorly.
Before I went to Germany I took the car to Steve at Charlesworth Motors to have a play with. He confirmed that the Shocks at the rear appear to be leaking.
I got the chance to drive my car back to back with a standard 330D (Gord's old car) with BMW Mtech suspension and my car was like a barge compared to the standard car! It was shocking (pardon the pun:laugh
!! This is even more suprising when you consider that my car also has uprated Eibach AntiRoll bars too.:blink: In the opinion of the garage they are saying that the shocks on my car have worn and are providing little resistance to body roll. They described it as uncontrolled bodyroll. The car is rather stiff and bouncy when driving in a straight line, but when you try to corner the car, it is rolling excessively compared to even a standard BMW with 16" wheels on with a hugh profile sidewall!In the opinion of the garage they have recommended that I get both the shocks and springs replaced i.e basically the whole lot front and rear. Both Steve and Simon agreed that the car was rolling heavily from the front of the car and the rears were leaking.
Luckily for me it turns out I was *just* within the 2 Year Eibach warranty period and emailed them some pictures of the leaking shocks and the problem with roll.
They have sent me a a set of replacement rear shocks for the rear of the car and thats all! Surely if the front is to blame they should replace those too?
I'll quote the Eibach email:
Quote:Although the majority of roll control is determined by the springs and dampers, there is still a contribution from the damper. Given that the rear dampers are obviously defective and we can assume that they have experienced some damping force degradation, a greater sense of body roll is to be expected. It is important to remember that the car’s body is a very stiff structure and therefore capable of transferring load from rear to front very efficiently. Any reduction in roll stiffness experienced at the rear of the car will inevitably result in a greater roll moment being experienced at the front – the front is therefore experiencing a greater roll moment than usual and will therefore also display a greater roll angle.
Quote:1. Spring rate (stiffness) does not degrade with use.
2. ‘Stiff and Bouncy’, as a comment, also supports the theory that the springs are fine (Stiff) and that the damping force has degraded (Bouncy). Essentially, springs and ARB’s support the vehicles mass, provide compliance for sharp road inputs and determine the cars ultimate roll angle (i.e. when the compressed springs and wound up ARB forces equal the cars roll moment force). Damping will determine the rate or speed with which this roll angle is achieved. With this in mind, weak damping force will result in the ultimate roll angle being achieved more quickly than with firmer damping, thus resulting in a perceived ‘feeling’ of greater roll but in actual fact the ultimate roll angle is the same as with correct damping.
I rang Steve and told him about the email and he is not convinced and said that yes, weight transfer does take place but not to the extent that causes the roll on my car.
I was just wondering what the knowledgable people on here thought? I don't want to spend the money on labour to get the rear shocks replaced and get the car aligned again if I am not sure it is going to solve the problem. I'd rather replace the front and rear shocks in one go. The problem is that any after market shock and spring combos at the moment seem to reduce ride height too much for my liking.
I am thinking I should just go back to my standard shocks and just get a set of eibach springs (which actually improve ride comfort over the oem springs because they are progessively wound) and be done with it. The problem with that is that they have done almost 80K and been sat in my shed for 2 years so not sure if thats a good idea.
Any advice apprecaited.
Anees
Hi guys,
As I'm sure everyone know my daily car is a BMW....:p:blushing:
The car has Eibach Coilovers, with Eibach AntiRoll bars. I have been having problems with it rolling excessively when cornering and generally driving poorly.
Before I went to Germany I took the car to Steve at Charlesworth Motors to have a play with. He confirmed that the Shocks at the rear appear to be leaking.
I got the chance to drive my car back to back with a standard 330D (Gord's old car) with BMW Mtech suspension and my car was like a barge compared to the standard car! It was shocking (pardon the pun:laugh!! This is even more suprising when you consider that my car also has uprated Eibach AntiRoll bars too.:blink: In the opinion of the garage they are saying that the shocks on my car have worn and are providing little resistance to body roll. They described it as uncontrolled bodyroll. The car is rather stiff and bouncy when driving in a straight line, but when you try to corner the car, it is rolling excessively compared to even a standard BMW with 16" wheels on with a hugh profile sidewall!
In the opinion of the garage they have recommended that I get both the shocks and springs replaced i.e basically the whole lot front and rear. Both Steve and Simon agreed that the car was rolling heavily from the front of the car and the rears were leaking.
Luckily for me it turns out I was *just* within the 2 Year Eibach warranty period and emailed them some pictures of the leaking shocks and the problem with roll.
They have sent me a a set of replacement rear shocks for the rear of the car and thats all! Surely if the front is to blame they should replace those too?
I'll quote the Eibach email:
Quote:Although the majority of roll control is determined by the springs and dampers, there is still a contribution from the damper. Given that the rear dampers are obviously defective and we can assume that they have experienced some damping force degradation, a greater sense of body roll is to be expected. It is important to remember that the car’s body is a very stiff structure and therefore capable of transferring load from rear to front very efficiently. Any reduction in roll stiffness experienced at the rear of the car will inevitably result in a greater roll moment being experienced at the front – the front is therefore experiencing a greater roll moment than usual and will therefore also display a greater roll angle.
Quote:1. Spring rate (stiffness) does not degrade with use.
2. ‘Stiff and Bouncy’, as a comment, also supports the theory that the springs are fine (Stiff) and that the damping force has degraded (Bouncy). Essentially, springs and ARB’s support the vehicles mass, provide compliance for sharp road inputs and determine the cars ultimate roll angle (i.e. when the compressed springs and wound up ARB forces equal the cars roll moment force). Damping will determine the rate or speed with which this roll angle is achieved. With this in mind, weak damping force will result in the ultimate roll angle being achieved more quickly than with firmer damping, thus resulting in a perceived ‘feeling’ of greater roll but in actual fact the ultimate roll angle is the same as with correct damping.
I rang Steve and told him about the email and he is not convinced and said that yes, weight transfer does take place but not to the extent that causes the roll on my car.
I was just wondering what the knowledgable people on here thought? I don't want to spend the money on labour to get the rear shocks replaced and get the car aligned again if I am not sure it is going to solve the problem. I'd rather replace the front and rear shocks in one go. The problem is that any after market shock and spring combos at the moment seem to reduce ride height too much for my liking.
I am thinking I should just go back to my standard shocks and just get a set of eibach springs (which actually improve ride comfort over the oem springs because they are progessively wound) and be done with it. The problem with that is that they have done almost 80K and been sat in my shed for 2 years so not sure if thats a good idea.
Any advice apprecaited.
Anees
I honestly think you have a badly calibrated resistance package between the coils and the ARB's.
wheels-inmotion
28-07-2016, 12:21 PM #2The dampers have from little to nothing to do with body roll... Even more so if the problem area is the rear.
I honestly think you have a badly calibrated resistance package between the coils and the ARB's.
wheels-inmotion The dampers have from little to nothing to do with body roll... Even more so if the problem area is the rear.
I honestly think you have a badly calibrated resistance package between the coils and the ARB's.
I have posted this on your forum too Tony - lol you certainly are everywhere
Thanks for the respone If you don't mind, what do you mean by having a badly calibrated resistance package between the coils and the ARBs?
Being a simpleton I thought, Eibach Coilovers + Eibach ARBs would be a good match.
I've still not had chance to change the tyres over yet; I intended to replace the Goodyears with Verdesteins too based on your advice in my thread on your forum but want to make sure the shocks are fine first.
wheels-inmotion The dampers have from little to nothing to do with body roll... Even more so if the problem area is the rear.
I honestly think you have a badly calibrated resistance package between the coils and the ARB's.
I have posted this on your forum too Tony - lol you certainly are everywhere
Thanks for the respone If you don't mind, what do you mean by having a badly calibrated resistance package between the coils and the ARBs?
Being a simpleton I thought, Eibach Coilovers + Eibach ARBs would be a good match.
I've still not had chance to change the tyres over yet; I intended to replace the Goodyears with Verdesteins too based on your advice in my thread on your forum but want to make sure the shocks are fine first.
![[Image: Sig-enginebay.jpg]](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/SteveHammatt/Sig-enginebay.jpg)
IS200 Turbo project now just about complete ! See my thread here and leave your comments.
Now running standalone Syvecs ECU and no stock ECU !
steviewevie
28-07-2016, 10:52 PM #4I don't know anything about your specific package. But when I put uprated ARBs on my IS200, even with (relatively worn ?) factory dampers, I had an absolutely *huge* reduction in body roll. My ARBs are relatively stiff, do you have a figure for how much stiffer than OEM your dampers are supposed to be ?
IS200 Turbo project now just about complete ! See my thread here and leave your comments.
Now running standalone Syvecs ECU and no stock ECU !
I had my original BMW suspension put back on the car about a month ago and to be honest it didn't really make a massive difference. Like Tony said straight away, I am convinced it is the tyres now causing the problems.
I was going to live with it, until the tyres wore down and replace them, but faith has forced my hand with a non repairable puncture on the rear tyres so I have bitten the bullet and gone for Verdestein Ultra Sessantas which I had on the Aristo before and were great and I also know Tony rates them and they are used by many happy BMW owners.
I can sell the three remaining Goodyears - 6mm thread left on the fronts to hopefully get some of my money back.
Hopefully when the Vredesteins are fitted I am finally happy
It also shows that Tony was correct from the start!!Thanks,
Anees
Bit of an update to this thread.
I had my original BMW suspension put back on the car about a month ago and to be honest it didn't really make a massive difference. Like Tony said straight away, I am convinced it is the tyres now causing the problems.
I was going to live with it, until the tyres wore down and replace them, but faith has forced my hand with a non repairable puncture on the rear tyres so I have bitten the bullet and gone for Verdestein Ultra Sessantas which I had on the Aristo before and were great and I also know Tony rates them and they are used by many happy BMW owners.
I can sell the three remaining Goodyears - 6mm thread left on the fronts to hopefully get some of my money back.
Hopefully when the Vredesteins are fitted I am finally happy It also shows that Tony was correct from the start!!
Thanks,
Anees
I can report: .....
- Much better turn in! Car feels less "mushy" if you know what I mean and sharper.
- Backend feels planted again - I pushed it to "some" miles an hour and backend was planted and not all over the place
- Seems to be less bodyroll too (but it was wet so not pushing it yet)
- Much harder to get the backend out and the stability control hardly comes on.
Much happier with the car now. The strange thing is my goodyears looks like new and the fronts (225/40/18) have only 7mm wear and the rears 6mm (255/35/18). Still hope to sell those. They are great tyres but just don't seem to suit my BMW.
On my car I have had:
Dunlop Sport Maxx, Falken Fk452, Michelin Pilot Sport PS2, Goodyear Eagle F1s and now these Verdesteins I would say were the best (close with the Michelins)
Right, new tyres were were fitted last week
I can report: .....
- Much better turn in! Car feels less "mushy" if you know what I mean and sharper.
- Backend feels planted again - I pushed it to "some" miles an hour and backend was planted and not all over the place
- Seems to be less bodyroll too (but it was wet so not pushing it yet)
- Much harder to get the backend out and the stability control hardly comes on.
Much happier with the car now. The strange thing is my goodyears looks like new and the fronts (225/40/18) have only 7mm wear and the rears 6mm (255/35/18). Still hope to sell those. They are great tyres but just don't seem to suit my BMW.
On my car I have had:
Dunlop Sport Maxx, Falken Fk452, Michelin Pilot Sport PS2, Goodyear Eagle F1s and now these Verdesteins I would say were the best (close with the Michelins)
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